Joobo the King of Wisdom

A True Friend of Freedom: Australian PM John Howard

No country, and no leader, has stood by America since 9/11 more than Australia and their leader, Prime Minister John Howard.

In an interview on Australian radio, he lets on just what a strong and patriotic leader he is.

Tony Jones speaks with Prime Minister John Howard

TONY JONES: Now, PM, let's move on to other issues: As you'd be well aware, the Pope has provoked anger in the Muslim world after quoting a 14th century emperor who accused the Prophet Mohammed of inspiring evil and inhuman human ideas and spreading his word by the sword. Now Australia's leading Catholic has called, again, for an examination of whether the Koran, and what the Koran, in fact, has written about violence.

JOHN HOWARD: Yes.

TONY JONES: Do you think Cardinal Pell has a point in focussing on what the Koran has written about violence?

JOHN HOWARD: Well I think the cardinal has a point in making the point that it's a strange form of restraint to respond to words you disagree with, with demonstrations and threats of violence. The Islamic community is perfectly entitled to criticise the Pope and the Pope is perfectly entitled, and other religious leaders are perfectly entitled, to express their views about other religions. But we're all meant to believe in peace and we're all meant to adhere to peaceful religions and I just think it's very strange and disappointing that whenever the Pope says something that people, or on this particular occasion, let's stick to this, he has said something that people don't agree with and that provokes demonstrations. Now, we are all meant to be bound by a belief in free speech and free expression, and my, I suppose, exasperation would be that of many of the people in Australia, that, okay, they may not like what His Holiness said and whether he should have said it or not is, in a sense, beside the point, but we are meant to believe in free speech and we are meant to not overreact. I think it's very important with these things that people don't overreact. I'm sure the great bulk of Catholics around the world want good relations with Islam, and the Catholic Church, itself, cops a fair amount of abuse on a daily basis. If Catholics rioted every time people attacked the Catholic Church, you'd have riots on a very regular basis.

TONY JONES: Let's look at what Cardinal Pell is saying because he's talking to Muslims here in Australia about examining, or re examining what the Koran says about violence. Have you read the Koran? Or at least have you read the sections of it that Cardinal Pell seems particularly to be focusing on, the war verses?

JOHN HOWARD: I don't know whether I have specifically read the bits that Cardinal Pell is referring to, but, Tony, I'm not going to get into an adjudication of a statement made by Cardinal Pell, I mean it's not my role. He's entitled to make statements, and whatever statements he makes he will justify and defend. But from a public policy point of view, as the PM of a country that obviously is greatly influenced by the Judaea Christian ethic, but nonetheless respects other religion, and indeed the people who have no religious belief at all, I think we should all take a deep breath on these things and all have a sense of proportion. We seem to be living in a world where people have no sense of proportion. Okay, they don't like what was said, I'm sure that the Pope was not intending to attack Islam. He has expressed his regrets and I think we should really move on, to use that rather hackneyed phrase of the modern world.

TONY JONES: Do you mean Cardinal Pell as well when you ask people to move on? Because asked if there are links between religion and violence at the heart of Islam, Cardinal Pell said he would, "... welcome clarification from our Islamic friends on that point." It's dangerous territory, isn't it?

JOHN HOWARD: I think what the cardinal was doing was defending the head of his church, and so he should. I'd defend the head of the church if I were in Cardinal Pell's position; I'm not. But as an observer and knowing Cardinal Pell, who is a great believer in religious tolerance and religious understanding in the Australian community, I'm sure he wasn't intending other than to defend His Holiness, and that's very understandable.

TONY JONES: Can you ask open questions like this about the violent past of Islam without, in the same breath, acknowledging the violent past of the Christian Church, for example?

JOHN HOWARD: I think I've heard him say that the Christian Church has been guilty of transgression. I mean all religions, well let me put it this way: People have committed evil in the name of all of the world's great religions. At the moment, however, the problem is that a common thread in terrorism around the world gives the indication of Islam as a sanction, or a blessing, on acts of terrorism, and that is the common thread. I don't, at the moment, note terrorist groups killing people and invoking the authority of the Catholic Church, or indeed the Christian Church, of which the Catholic Church is clearly a dominant part, as some kind of authority. I mean that's the difference. Sure, people have done evil things. The Third Reich was inaugurated, as I remember years and years ago, in a church building. I mean, all sorts of evil things have been done under the cover of religion. But the problem we have at the moment is that the common thread of all of these terrorist attacks is that the terrorists claim the authority of Allah. Now that's a blasphemy on Islam. It's because they do blaspheme Islam that many of us, myself included, like to see moderate leaders attacking terrorism. I'm very pleased at the response of many of the Islamic leaders in the past little while in Australia on that very issue. They know that terrorism is no part of Islam, they know that the beliefs of Islam are incompatible with murder and terrorism and hatred. The commonality between all of the world's great religions is enormous.

TONY JONES: Let's talk about the common thread you were talking about earlier, because I'm wondering if it's reflected in your reasons for talking about an Australian values test. You say it's got nothing at all to do with Islam, but it was never even mooted before the threat of Islamic fundamentalism, was it?

JOHN HOWARD: Tony, I have been talking about the need for a common adherence to a set of Australian values for years. Now, come on, Tony, you can go back, you've got plenty of archival footage here, and I've been talking about the need to avoid zealous multiculturalism, I've been talking about the need for there to be an overriding commitment to Australian values for years and years and years. Don't anybody try and put it to me that I've only started to talk about these things since terrorism became an issue.

TONY JONES: This is what's given it the momentum to actually become a major issue, isn't it?

JOHN HOWARD: It may be in the minds of some commentators and even interviewers. But that's drawing a very, very long bow, to say that I've only been on about Australian values and the common bonds that unite us as Australians.

TONY JONES: I don't think anyone is saying that. What people are saying is that the Australian values test seems to be linked to this fear of Islamic fundamentalism. That seems to be pretty clear.

JOHN HOWARD: I think that's a link that some people might seek to draw, but it's much broader than that.

As they say, read the whole thing. Much of the interview is not on terrorism - mostly on Australian political issues - but nonetheless you can see why John Howard is one of the great leaders in the world today.